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The Worlds Local Bank
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Kris



Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 2550
Location: Sheffield

PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2004 11:54    Post subject: The Worlds Local Bank Reply with quote

At the HSBC, they know the true value of local knowledge.

For instance, to have a call centre in Britain you would have to pay at least minimum wage and give those workers right's such as paid sick days, holidays and maternity leave.

However if you were to do the same thing in India, you can turn in a record profit of BILLIONS, AND can get away with paying virtually fuck all to staff, giving them no rights whatsoever.

Anyone know of a bank that is less evil? When I move my bank account I'd like it to be to a company that doesn't exploit third world labour in my name.

http://money.guardian.co.uk/work/story/0%2C1456%2C1086974%2C00.html

Kinkster
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John Mc



Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2004 12:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are call centre workers in India badly paid? I thought that all the people who worked in them there had degrees and were well paid and its considered to be a good job.

I think the Co-op bank claim to be ethical, you could try there.
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Kris



Joined: 16 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2004 12:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

They are well paid compared to teachers etc over there.

The average wage of a call centre Graduate in India is £2,500.

Like I say, more than teachers etc, but 15,000 less than their British counterpart.
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John Mc



Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2004 12:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

But sure that’s the nature of the world, people get different wages in different places. I moved back up North from London last year and I get paid less up here than I did in London for doing the same job. But the cost of living is cheaper up here so I'm better off over all. And won't India be better off because of the new jobs and investment in the call centres?
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Kris



Joined: 16 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2004 12:44    Post subject: Reply with quote

You raise a decent point but I can't be happy about it.

There are 4000 jobs to be lost at the HSBC alone. When Lloyds TSB, Barcleys etc follow them then it is predicted some 200,000 jobs could be lost in England and Wales. These are the jobs that were meant to have saved our economy when these people watched their Manufacturing jobs go to India / China 10 years ago.

I'm sure it's actually illegal for a company to sack someone here on the grounds that they can pay someone else less money to do the job. Why is it ok if that person happens to live in another country?

One Call Centre has already been moved back to the UK after it was
shown that crime gangs are offering Call centre workers the equivalent of one year UK Salary in return for bank account codes etc.

etc etc etc etc
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John Mc



Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2004 13:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

But people are made redundant all the time because companies think they can get people to do their jobs cheaper. It won't be as straight forward as "we're getting rid of you because we've found Mr Smith who's offered to do the job more cheaply". People get laid off and their colleagues who remain have to pick up their work and it works out cheaper for the company.

And do you think that people in India shouldn't be given jobs because they can't be trusted and will give out information if someone offers them enough money?

Obviously its bad for anyone to have to lose their job anywhere. But I don't think the people in Indian call centres are badly treated, if they're happy to do the job and aren't been unfairly treated then good luck to them.
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Kris



Joined: 16 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2004 13:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mc wrote:
And do you think that people in India shouldn't be given jobs because they can't be trusted and will give out information if someone offers them enough money?.


I know if someone offered me 5 times my annual wage I'd be tempted. There is no question of it being because they're Indian thanks.

John Mc wrote:
If they're happy to do the job and aren't been unfairly treated then good luck to them.


Absolutely agree. However I doubt because these people are graduates means that they will be treated fairly or given anything like the workers rights we "enjoy" over here.

I think your arguement that because they live in India and everyone in India is paid badly is a little flawed. I also disagree with the point that, "it happens everywhere all the time" should therefore mean I should be apathetic to it all either.
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Kris



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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2004 13:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3292619.stm

has both sides of the argument.
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John Mc



Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2004 14:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kinkster wrote:
There is no question of it being because they're Indian thanks.


Sorry, I shouldn't have written it like that, didn't meant to cause any offence.

So is your argument that call centres shouldn't go to India because of the security issue (the people are poor and therefore more likely to accept bribes) or because they're not being paid enough? Or both. Obviously it the responsiblity of the call centre operators over there to ensure such breaches in security don't occur. And I honestly don't believe you'd give out sensitive information like that even if you were offered loads of cash to do it. I wouldn't, not because I'm a massively moral man but because I'd be likely to get caught and put in prison. I reckon most other people would feel the same.

And I'm not being apathetic about the wages, surely if people are badly paid in a country and a company comes along and offers jobs which pay more than existing jobs its a step in the right direction. If the wages were at the same level as in the UK then HSBC would just stay in that country and India would be worse off.
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columbo



Joined: 03 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2004 18:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

and what about the arguement that people like me, having worked for bt for four years (just over) getting made redundant at christmas because of them having call centres opening in india?
i have nothing against the indians getting call centre work, but i do have something against anybody getting my job just because they will do it for less money than me...
the union could do nothing about it, nobody could... (we did contact the dti and citizens advice etc - it made no difference)
i mean, i have a new job now, im not starving or anything, but still... me and many of my colleagues were out of work, at a very bad time of year to find work too.
personnally i think that companies doing this are completely out of order - so it saves them a few quid? there are still some of my ex-colleagues who have yet to find work! like i said, i'm not against a company opening a call centre over in india or anywhere, i just am against it if it means people over here losing their jobs. i have another job in another call centre now - how long before this company moves?
so i think its not just about exploiting third world labour - what these companies are doing is exploiting me and thousands of other british workers! rights don't seem to mean jack anymore, they really don't. and as for job security...?
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Setareh Juventina



Joined: 01 Dec 2002
Posts: 1415
Location: Norrköping, Sweden

PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2004 19:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure this isn't news to all of you but moving work to poorer countries is something the west has been doing for decades. Sometimes in the western countries they talk about the end of the industrial age and the birth of the information age.

The truth however is that industrialism hasn't disappeared, it only moved. Now the third world gets all the hard/low pay jobs, the employees are usually kept not only on low wages but poor working conditions. At the same time, more and more people in the west go without jobs and the gap between rich and poor widens. So we're all suffering from this.

I can't really speak for these call centers because it's not like working in a factory, and I don't know how much rights they have. I'm just saying, it's tendency that hasn't just started, employers want undemanding cheap work force...fools.

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John Mc



Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 1398

PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2004 21:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone in the department I work in is being made redundant in September and the jobs are moving to Eastern Europe. And at the last two places I've worked similar things have happened to people I know, it seems a common occurence these days. I suppose the idea is that the jobs these people do can be done more efficiently elsewhere so people in Britain should retrain to fill roles in jobs that are still here. Like the miners were all meant to retrain as IT specialists. But surely there will come a time soon when we'll be left with no low skill jobs in this country and lots of people looking for the same sort of work. I'm not sure where all the new jobs here are going to come from.

But how can poor countries get richer if they don't get investment from big companies? And they're obviously going to try to attract them by saying they'll save money. However that BBC article in the link posted by Kinkster above says that the economic benefit to India of the call centres isn't that great. And I've also read articles saying that even India is now considered relatively expensive and companies are looking to countries where call centres are even cheaper to set up eg. Argentina.
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mrfiresky
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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2004 18:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

I worked for hsbc bank for 6 years and left due to the shocking way people are treated, trust me the things that they do for profit are more discgraceful than you think. kinkster's argument is spot on. this country will be in a huge recession by the end of 2005 trust me. wish i could tell you more about hsbc but due to confidentiality clauses etc could get my ass sued. on a plus point i was 27 and walked out on them without another job to go to. most liberating thing i have ever done.
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Dubya - T



Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 559
Location: Floatin' down the greasy grass river

PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2004 22:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

A friend of mine worked for a large company based in Nottingham who control the credit referencing in this country and also handle the inputting of the electoral roll.
It was cheaper for them to gather all the electoral roll forms for the whole country together, pay people to pack them into crates and ship the whole lot out to Kenya than it would be to do the inputting here. This was about 7 or 8 years ago.

They actually stopped him from voting! His name was Paul, middle initial was A. They forgot the space so it looked like the name on the card was Paula. They refused to accept it at the polling station!
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Kris



Joined: 16 Sep 2002
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Location: Sheffield

PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 07:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the end of the day, where is the profit going? HSBC is reported to have made something like Six Billion pounds profit last year.....! i have nothing against the call centres being in India, but when such few people are making such massive profit, why can't this be shared out in big pay rises to the staff that make that profit for them?

Anyways... back to my first question. Does anyone know of a Bank / Building Society that is maybe not partaking in these practises, or should I just start hoarding my money in my mattress?
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